The Kimura(ude-garami) was around before Judo certainly but had no specific name I am aware of, it is typically associated with Judo as Kimura(the guy who made it famous by tapping out Helio with it) was a judoka himself.Calling it a hammer lock isn't quite correct, I am sure Richard could help with the technical side of things here but I am pretty sure they are different submissions all together, look similar but not the same.

I associate the rubber guard with jiu jitsu and Eddie Bravo but I assume someone had held their ankle before in the guard. Same way I feel about the Kimura and the triangle(judo) and the gogoplata(BJJ).

True, but Catch has used the kimura for longer than Judo, and called it a hammer-lock. It is the same thing, from the cacc perspective; at least, my trainer learned it from Frank Shamrock that way.

walkerjerry wrote:
Catch has used the kimura for longer than JudoHave you any proof of this? Or is it another 'fact' you're gonna throw out there. I assume you mean japanese jiu jitsu by Judo as Judo is just a branch off from it to make it more sellable to the Japanese people, as the original traditional jiu jitsu was pretty brutal.

Well, tbh, I am only assuming that, since Catch is older than Judo, and since that is a fundamental Catch submission. And no, I don't mean JJJ, I said Judo. Yes, Judo is derived from JJJ (its intention was to be a sport), but is VASTLY different, and I can't be sure, but I don't think the Kimura was a part of traditional JJJ.

To the best of my knowledge, the Kimura (with whatever name you'd like to call it) was derived from JJJ; which long predates Catch, Judo, BJJ, etc. So if we're worried about practicing the older "more reliable" art then I guess we should all go back to Japanese Jiu-Jitsu.

However- my real question is this: Why do we care where the Kimura came from? The name came from the judo master who caught Helio Gracie in it-- but as far as the technique is concerned, what does it matter? Plus, which one of the ten bazillion (yes, that's a word) variations are we referring to?

I don't care who beat who with what- I just care that I can properly perform and defend against the technique. The kimura has many useful setups, sweeps, and finishes off of it. I suggest taking some notes from the Judo, JJJ, BJJ, Sambo, Catch, etc. versions. It is a very versatile weapon that you should learn to utilize from many different positions with many different variations.

I am cool to leave this but I was just saying catch never created some effective submissions we see used alot in MMA today, to go back to the start, I don't see myself tapping anyone worth anything with the submissions shown in Tony's videos, although I will look again so I can be aware of them so I don't get caught in them.

The reason I don't see the Kimura being used in old style catch is because a kimura from the guard wouldn't be used much because it would be too easy to pin you thus losing in traditional catch wrestling, going for the kimura from top would be pointless as it would be too easy pin someone in traditional catch. Just don't know why they would use a kimura in catch before training for an MMA fight.
The above is me theorizing about a grappling I know little about(simply because no-one wrestles in Ireland), so expect alot of inaccuracies.